Rampager
Site Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 51
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 Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:17 am Post subject: Dev selected comments on Warhammer Online |
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Warhammer Game Balance
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Racial imbalances in an RvR game are always going to be a problem no matter what the races or lineup look like. These problems are exacerbated when the groups that are taking part in the game are soooo different from each other. This has been one of our main concerns from the beginning and getting it right is crucial to this games success. A few simple rules:
1) The sides/realms will never be balanced in terms of population/ unless the developer forces the issue. OTOH, no smart developer would ever force the issue if they want their game to succeed. Once you force players to play in a certain realm/race, you will allienate your players.
2) An RvR game that features lots of complex systems can never be perfectly balanced unless all the systems are exactly the same across all the realms. Using that setup for WAR would be dumb, dumb, dumb and we are not doing it.
3) We are making a WH-based game not a 100% faithful reproduction of the WH material (nobody could do that, there is way too much material that has evolved over decades and so much of it is different).
4) No one race can be uber. The game has to be fun for all players or in the end, it will be fun for no players. This is an RvR game not a solo, PvE game. Races/Realms will have their strengths and weaknesses, advantages and disadvantages but the game system has to work 1:1 or it won't work 10:10 or 40:40.
5) We must have complex systems that are capable of helping to ease the imbalance between the realms remembering that no matter what we think the players will like to play, we will not be right all the time.
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A few quickies:
1) Any PvP flagging we may use, keep in mind that I actually created the PvP flag concept (and called it that) almost 20 years ago in my first MUD. So, if we do use it, it isn't because we got it from WoW. Also, keep in mind that they are lots of exploits that can be used by the player in a PvP system like that and only if we can close them will we use the system.
2) In terms of the whole 2/3 side thing. Keep in mind the following:
a) When you have a game with two sides, there will almost always be an imbalance between the two sides and when that happens, the results for either side isn't good.
b) When you have 3 sides, there is always an imbalance (even if there is not difference between the 3 sides as there is here) but if there is some good cross-flow between the sides (loose alliances), then the results are better.
c) The words loose and "early stage" should be paramount in your minds at this point.
Mark
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Warhammer RVR
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Folks,
It's really simple, WAR will succeed only if our RvR system rocks. Everything else, PvE, crafting, etc. mean nothing if RvR (and the key support systems for RvR) sucks. Time will tell.
Mark |
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While there will indeed be instanced RvR (actually called Scenarios, not Campaigns), that will not the only form of “high-level RvR.” You will still be able to fight out in the open field (called Skirmishes) much like in the Frontiers of DAoC. Laying siege to an enemy Capital city will not be limited to just 32 players; it will be a large-scale undertaking. Destiny points are actually called Fate points. The system isn't exactly the same as in the RPG, but we think it works well; you'll have to let us know how well you think it works in beta
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"The four elements of RvR noted in the article are actually designed to be much more integrated than the author of the article lets on – Battlefields and Skirmish play take place in a shared RvR space, and Scenarios are adjacent to those areas as well. Dominance in these aspects of play combines to drive the greater Campaign, which moves the fighting through the world to keep things interesting, and can culminate – if the attacking force is skilled and persistent – in the sacking of an enemy city.
"...we aim to create a coherent RvR experience where players can participate when and how they care to, and where everyone contributes to the greater war. Certainly not every aspect of RvR will be for every player, but whatever aspect is for you will matter, and so you can play the way or ways you want to, whatever they may be, and still be an important part of the war."
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Questing
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A few rules from my design:
1) No time-sink quests of any kind. If the only way we can generate enough content for players to feel like they are getting good value for this game is to force them to spend hours and hours running from point a to point b to point c and then bake to a or to mindlessly kill 1000 NPCs, then we have failed to create a great next-gen MMORPG.
2) Quests, whenever possible (and the exceptions to this rule must be fore really unique and interesting quests), must tie in tightly the backstory and WH IP
3) No kill 100s creatures to get an item with a 0.01% drop rate (I think my doc also mentioned a quick trip to a very hot fire for anyone who created such quests)
We have spent a ton of time so far getting the quests off the ground in the right way as well as coming uop with a lot more types of quests (in my book killing 1PC to get an item = kill 100 NPCs to get an item, they don't count as separate quest types).
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Player Death
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No worries, I don't think you really venting and ranting at all. I'll let you know if I think you crossed the line.
Also, no perma-death (no surprise there) and players will absolutely be able to have more than one character per server (once again, knowing Mythic, should be no surprise).
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1) No loss of items for the defeated player. That only discourages people from RvRing or taking their items into RvR.
2) No long corpse runs, ever.
3) We have some slightly different ideas that we are working on.
4) The death penalty should never be a deterrent for a player who wants to have fun but should be a deterrent for a player who is trying to be a griefer/jerk/moron/etc.
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Farming & Ebaying
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For what it's worth:
1) I hate professional farming/farmers and companies that make money off the same. We've been presented with numerous opportunities to make money from such groups/companies and have strongly rebuffed every one. I have taken a strong public stance on this issue and will continue to do so.
2) I dislike the need for players to have to farm in order to advance
3) I like game systems that discourage/prohibit (1) and don't require (2).
4) I'm involved with designing the game systems for WAR.
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Griefing
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We will create a great game for a large audience and not for a very small minority who get their jollies from doing everything they can to make the other person so mad they would rather quit then go through that experience again.
This game is supposed to be fun, challenging and a place where you will want to stay a long time and one where you can feel like you are accomplishing something. There is nothing fun nor challenging about getting killed repeatedly by more experienced players (when you have no chance to win) who have decided to treat you as their own personal pinata, it's simply dumb and why would you want to stay then?
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Warhammer magic system
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I couldn't agree more. Implementing a coll magic system for WAR is one of our greatest challenges. We have to balance the needs of the players, the desires of the players (two totally different things), the WH system and just plain fun. What I can tell you so far is that the system feels very WHery and is fun for the current crop of MMO players (DAoC, EQ, WoW, etc.).
Keep in mind that we don't want to alienate players who actually want to play a magic-using character nor do we want to alienate the player who wants to play a "tank-like" character. And to make it ever more difficult to balance, we need to make sure that these guys can do battle with and against each other in a abalanced way. It's no fun for a mage to get one-shot killed every time by a tank nor would it be fun for the tank to get bireballed from a distance and similarily killed. As GW will tell you, there's a ton of magic in the WH world but not so prevalent that it's disposable, cheap and meaningless.
What I can tell you is that if you are expecting to see an "exact" duplication of the magic system from either WFB or WFRPG, you will be disappointed. On the other hand, if you are looking for a system that utilizes the key elements of the magic system (oh, let's talk about the role of Chaos for a starter) and then expands and contracts the systems where necessary to make a fun and great MMORPG, that you'll like the system. Like almost everything in WAR, when you see the system you'll say "Yeap, it most assuredly is Warhammer. It may not be WFB or WFRPG exactly but it is Warhammer."
As always, for every person who posts here I'm sure he/she will their own view on what is essential for this game to be Warhammer. And, as always once again, we know that there will always be some, because we've changed/omitted/ignored a part of WH that they love, will say that the system is, for that reason, truly not Warhammer. And, as always, if I can look at the guys at GW and see tjay they are smiling at me (but not holding sharp and nasty-looking weapons and standing next to a very large pot of boiling liquid), then I'll be satisfied that we held up our end of the bargain.
Mark
P.S. FYI, a lot of the notes I wrote up on the magic system for the inital game design were quoted directly (and boy oh boy, do I mean directly) from writings of certain people at GW
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As to magical items, if you talk to the GW guys they will tell you this (and I can say this and this is exactly what we talked about):
1) That WHFRP != WFB != WAR.
2) That if you really look at the WH material that you will see that magic items are not as rare as it might seem.
3) Magic and magic items are not the equivalent of today's technology in terms of their ease and safety of use but that magic is not all amazing pyrotechnics and portents of doom.
Magic is a huge part of the WH world (unlike Tolkien's Third Age among others) especially for the types of characters that players of WAR will be creating. Remember, this game is called WAR for a reason and the roles that people will be taking are not those of some unimportant individual. Here you will be creating great heroes and champions (on all sides) and your abilities and gear will reflect that. Now, will magic and magical items be cheap, disposable and easy to acquire and master as in some other RPGs, nope but they will not be as scarce as some players may think/want. Again, keep in mind that WAR fits nicely into the GW universe and if we were running off the tracks they would be the first guys to tell me so.
Mark
P.S. Also, remember that if we make the items too rare or difficult to get, that the more casual players will suffer for it and we don't want to do that, ever.
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Collectors edition
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My thoughts on Collector's Edition, Expansion Packs, Veteran, etc. rewards are actually quite simple:
1) Any thing that you can get by simply buying it (CE,EXP) but that is either more expensive (CE) or in limited quantity cannot be an item that gives a player an advantage in PvP. I believe that if people want to buy a CE like WoW's where they get a nice bit of fluff, they should be able to. However, I draw a major line in the sand when it comes to an item that can give the player an advantage. You could still have a CE-sword (different design, even better effects) but it must have no advantage over a sword that a player can get in the game through questing, PvP, etc.
2) I'm a big believer though in Veteran Rewards both from the fluff side and even if the item can help in PvE (and possibly PvP). I believe that many online game companies haven't done enough to thank their long-term players. At Mythic, we tried to do with the free expansion-packs. One exec at another company (that will go nameless) tried to convince me that Mythic's free stuff was not a good idea and was hurting the industry. We expect to do the same thing with WAR. We want to have a mixture of free stuff and paid stuff and this could also take thf form of some VRs. Now, we need to be very careful here because we don't want a player who got a VR to become "uber" but we do also want to thank him/her for their patronage. MMORPGs are not FPSes, there will always be an advantage for the player that has played longer (assuming two players are equal in real-world skill) as the player who has played longer has gotten access to more stuff in the game (being higher level). I see VR as being no different that that. Again, keep in mind that my progessions would be:
Fluff -> Personal (non-fluff) -> PvE (minor) -> PvE (greater) -> PvP
Where you start by giving fluff and then work your way up to PvP stuff later on
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No communication between realms
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1) To prevent spying or worse, having a friend who specifically is helping another friend by messing up his side (false information, failure to act or take the wrong actions).
2) Any real communication between the realms would bring out the worst in some people. We thought it would be a CSR nightmare and we would have been right. We knew what would happen ("HAHAHA you suck monkey balls!!!!, I F***ed you up, I F***ed you up!!!!", etc.,etc.,etc.) and frankly the fact we get enough of that nonsense between people of the same realms, tells me everything I need to know. And let me tell you, the things that people say in these games even shocks me at times and as anyone who knows me can tell you, my language can be quite colorful at times.
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Various other topics
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3) Server resets only mean that certain parts of the server are reset. No character resets or anything like that. It will work and it will work well I believe. Capturing and sacking a city is not only part of WH lore but it fits well into a game setting. It cannot be easy for a whole host of reasons and it must take place over days. If it was something that could be done easily by a group (even a large group), then server population imbalances, time-zone issues and other such stuff would render such things as those meaningless. By making it more of a campaign, those sorts of things will have less effect on an individual basis. For the core RvR gamer, the idea of being able to sack another side's city (and come away with loot) is something that we have all been waiting for in these types of games.
4) Scenarios are not WoW's BGs (or our BGs for that mater). We need to do a better job than anyone has done to date and we are well down that path.
5) The graphics are not WoW's at all. Keep in mind that the area that PC Gamer was able to see did not lend itself to the kind of darkness or imagination that other areas will. Running around a mountainous area that has been overrun by Greenskins doesn't lend itself to a lot of diversity. Where the differences will really become apparent are in the character customization and in areas like the Elven lands. Keep in mind that the game changes weekly and after their most recent GW visit, the guys were shocked at how much things changed in only a few weeks.
6) I think you guys are spot on when you see it looks like a cross between 5th and 6th edition and the WFB miniatures. That's the look we are going for. We don't want to be as dark as the 6th edition in all areas, nor do we want to be as light as 5th edition (which is a long that WoW is a lot closer to). We wanted our own look for the game and we think we have nailed it so far. As I promised from the beginning we were going to disappoint some people who wanted us to be ultra-dark and some others who wanted us to be a lot lighter (like 5th). We think we have a great look for the game and if we can do with the Elves what we did with the Orcs, I'll be really, really happy.
The point about Orcs and Chaos crafting is a good one and one we looked at but the problem is that we have to all understand that the Greenskin realm will probably be the least popular of all the realms. People, as a general rule, like to play humans and based on all of the MMORPGs out there, good-looking humans. Depending on what kind of job we do with Chaos, they might be a bit understafffed as well. Thus, we must make sure that we don't take away things from those realms that by doing so, make the realms even more out of balance. My fear with removing such things from those realms is that we would then lose a certain percentage of the population that actually enjoys crafting and would, in the Greenskins and Chaos realms, see a wonderful opportunity because of the lesser number of competiton that they would see there. And while we believe the things we are doing to help ease an expected imbalance will help, I also believe that there is a certain level of imbalance that would be impossible for game systems to even out. The last thing we all want is RvR battles with 10 player-Orcs and 100 player controlled NPCs versus 110 player-humans.
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